Associated 10R5

As promised to Neil, here are my tips on how to fill a 10R5 (or 12R5/12R5.1) shock.

When I first built these shocks they seemed really hard work, and I know others who still find them really tricky. As I've got more used to working on them and by taking tips from others I've changed my mind.

I'm assuming the shock body, shock bottom and piston are all in place.

Fill the oil to the ridge line inside the shock. Most the piston up and down to release air that will be trapped beneath the piston.

Wait.

Move the shock again and let air bubbles rise to the top of the oil.

(Repeat this until the shock action is totally smooth, and there are zero bubbles rising up the oil. Add more oil if the level drops.)

Leave the piston at the bottom of the shock.

Fit the plastic spacer into the shock body. Run a small hex drive around and around the spacer which will start to drop down into the shock body. Use a paper towel (or pit towel) to dry the oil that will now be on top of the shock.

Keep running the hex drive around the plastic until it stops moving down the shock body.

Fit the red o-ring. If this is proud of the top of the shock body then you've got too much oil in the shock and the plastic shock top won't fit properly.

(A tip I've seen is the o-ring will expand as it soaks up oil over time. The advice is to fit a new o-ring if it has expanded too much.)

Take the plastic shock top and line it up with the shock body. Turn it backwards past the thread on the shock body, and you will feel a slight "snick" as it passes the start of the thread.

Only then should you start to screw in the shock top. If you feel resistance or can see it isn't going on straight then stop, undo it and start again.

If it is on straight and screws in easily then job done. Check the movement and if all is well the shock will move up and down smoothly.

Just to add to Marks post it is worth cutting a small flat on the black plastic seat for the o ring it allowes the oil to pass over it when you push it in and will help make sure you don't trap any air between it and the o ring which will eventually end up in the main shock body.

Jason

Some tips to make sure the rear pod of your 10R5 (or 12R5/5.1) can move freely. If it doesn't then this really upsets the handling...

The grub screws holding the side links in are only there to keep the links on the car after a heavy shunt. It is tempting to screw them in tight, but this does stop the link moving as the pod moves from side to side. Try undoing them and that movement will free up no end (you'd actually be surprised how loose you can get them).

The main pivot assembly attaches the pod and chassis, and is key to the movement of the pod forward + back as well as side to side. In that assembly two screws fit into the plastic moulding and secure into lock nuts. Again don't over tighten these as it will restrict pod movement - tight is bad, slightly undone is good, but too lose will leave the pod wobbling around as it moves side to side.

This almost goes without saying for any pan car - make sure motor and sensor wires don't foul anything as the pod moves. I run my over the top of the pod, and use the thinnest 16 guage wire I can (TQ wire). And I use a soft and flexible sensor lead making sure to avoid the side spring.

I'd also add that I've found limited value in running a lot of pre-load on the side springs. A little is ok, but compressed down they won't work effectively.

Great tips guys thanks for all the info

Awesome guys cheers just the tips I was after keep em coming every little helps

Will change o rings mine are more than a little swollen nice tip !!!!

Neil crutchlow wrote:Awesome guys cheers just the tips I was after keep em coming every little helps

Will change o rings mine are more than a little swollen nice tip !!!!

Check the size of the holes between the new and the old and it becomes clear why they grab on the shaft and make the handling erratic

Jasob

superb!! cheers guys, think the biggy is that tight is not the best, alterations made, looking forward to the next run with the GT and 1/12th

Thanks again!!!

Si wrote:Great tips guys thanks for all the info

No problem Si - I know that colour scheme on your car by the way. You must have bought K.Rob's 10R5 second hand then

So we've talked about shocks and the side links/rear pivot.

However sorting those will make little difference if the front end isn't right. There is very little movement for any one part on a pan car like the 10R5...not a surprise for a car designed to go fast on smooth surfaces. However that makes it all the more important that the movement you do have is spot on

The 10R5 front end is a well sorted design, and a step on from the often copied 12L3/12L4 design. The most important thing in my view is to get the vertical pin sliding up and down as smoothly as possible. A 1/8-inch reamer will help ease out the hole in the steering hub (Jason and I will always have one with us, so just pop over and ask to borrow it for 5 mins!).

If it still grabs anywhere in the movement up and down then try polishing the large verttical pin. I spin them up in a Dremel and polish with the finest wet & dry paper I have (600 grit or finer). Turn the pin around to do both ends to the same point, and be careful not to overdo it.

Try them every once in a while. If you are not getting anywhere then try the pin in each part - upper ball, steering upright and lower ball. If the upright is tight then the reamer will cure it. The plastic balls can need either careful use of the reamer or a slight nip with pliers.

I've shared one of my favourite mods before - which is to replace the plastic balls with the metal versions sold by IRS. These are in my expereince a whole lot smoother.

Check the front springs from time to time as they can collapse. Replace them if you think that is happened, and use the longer springs designed for the 10R5 rather than shorter 12th springs (I'll post part numbers for these later!)

The other mod that both Jason and I have mentioned often is to run in-line axles. These really improve the steering, and avoid having to stiffen up the car to unstick those big rear tyres on a GT car.

They will come in two parts - plastic moulding and the metal axle. Note all will use a 4/40 driver for the wheel nut, so don't expect your M3 nut driver to fit :p And the Associated in-line axles are a touch larger so run a different wheel bearing...many of the others available are "standard" size and the usual bearings will fit.

Check the front end every few runs and after any significant front end crash. And if you can feel any sticking in the up and down movement then repeat the tips above.

Some of the set up sheets you will see have the front pin and spring either run "dry" (for without any lubrication) or with a stiff oil ro grease. This will slightly dampen the movement, and will need replacing every few runs as carpet fluff and dust will build up. Personally I rarely run this, but it is an option.

Hi Markb

Yeh purchased from Keith with a great spray job done on the shell
just wish his skills on the sticks had come with it

Thanks again for all the info yourself and Jason have been passing on
and good luck in Vegas

markb wrote:
They will come in two parts - plastic moulding and the metal axle.

Part numbers please

I have the steering blocks but the axles I have are alloy from a B4 and the king pin hole is to small


Front Ride Height
which shims to use for chaning the ride height?

part number please

These are kit standard Glen
http://www.losipartshouse.com/servlet/the-27904/ASC4617-Front-Bulkhead-Shim-cln-12R5,/Detail

Part number in link

Or these

http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/cPath/1_25_1450_970/products_id/164832/n/ManuTech-Racing-Front-Quik-Shim-Kit-10R5-12R5

Si wrote:Hi Markb

Yeh purchased from Keith with a great spray job done on the shell
just wish his skills on the sticks had come with it

Thanks again for all the info yourself and Jason have been passing on
and good luck in Vegas

Hi Si

That was the 10R5 from the Racecar review...hence the very impressive shell. We've spent years telling Keith it was a dark pink, then he decided bright flouro pink was easier to see Thankfully you got a shell form before that point...I think Terry Atkinson might have painted it (Tellshells). If so it will be top work like the Rossi helemd design he did on an shell for one of my reviews.

I need to go over the car with a fine tooth comb before packing it for the trip to Vegas. We're a few weeks away from needing to pack, but working away during the week + lots of other things on means it won't be easy!

Could be that jogs my memory for a few more tips.

Prep aside I'm really looking forward to Vegas

Front ride height shims use CRC or Fibrelyte ones much easier than washers

http://www.actionmodelcentre.com/search.asp?nobox=&scat=&stext=ride+height&stype=&sprice=&pg=3

At the back the complete 0.25mm CRC set is a good bet

http://www.actionmodelcentre.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CAL%2D3381

At the front I use these inline blocks and axles

http://www.rc4less.com/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=250&osCsid=c7a6074e6da61f35b484664537815602


Jason

chequered_flag_racing wrote:

markb wrote:
They will come in two parts - plastic moulding and the metal axle.

Part numbers please

I have the steering blocks but the axles I have are alloy from a B4 and the king pin hole is to small


Front Ride Height
which shims to use for chaning the ride height?

part number please

10R5 front spring part numbers:
ASC8429 for .20 springs (all I've run for a while)
ASC8427 for .18 springs
ASC8431 for .22 springs

Associated in-line axles (remember these run bigger bearings...)
ASC8443 for the axle
ASC8441 for the in-line axle moulding
*** note neither of these parts comes with bearings and only has a plastic nut (you need a 4-10 nyloc to race with IMHO)

Lefhander RC has Finish-line in-line axle kits - FLR4600 ... come with nyloc nut and both axle and moulding (and expect they use standard front wheel bearings)

Pretty much every pan car manufacturer makes in-line parts. I know I bought a Hyperdrive in-line axle kit from the Snowbirds on-site shop in February. If you struggle with these then let me know and I'll dig out more sites/part numbers.

The front end spacers are just M3 spacers - the kit part number is ASC4617 which gives 4 x 2mm + 4 x 1mm + 4 0.5 mm spacers.

You can and I have use any M3 spacer...just be certain to run exactly the same sizes in all four "corners" of the front suspension. I have a handy stack of Schumacher M3 spacers and have used them.

There are some quick fit adjusters. I used to run carbon spacers in 12th cars with the 12r4 front end...the spacing is different for R5 front ends. If you want to check them out then they are out there to fit the R5 (and I see Jason has posted part numbers while I've been typing this on the train )

Thanks All for link's etc

Hope AMC have some bits with then at the weekend or I may have to beg, steal or borrow

I'll be at Teesside Saturday and Sunday, give me a shout if you need any help or want me to give the car a once over.

Jason

jasonb wrote:I'll be at Teesside Saturday and Sunday, give me a shout if you need any help or want me to give the car a once over.

Jason

JasonB

You may be getting the centre shock to sort out if I don't do it today. Pain in the arse to fill it. Will go over MarkB's shock post at the start of this thread and try again.

Anyone used a different centre shock?

chequered_flag_racing wrote:
I have the steering blocks but the axles I have are alloy from a B4 and the king pin hole is to small

so don't try or buy ASC9623 as they don't fit. They were in the B4 box and I was hoping they would be OK

Correct one's on hold at AMC who hope to at TRCC by 14:00 on Saturday

What tyre diameter front and rear to start at with new ones?

chequered_flag_racing wrote:What tyre diameter front and rear to start at with new ones?

I usually start at 54mm for both front and rear. You might want to start 1mm bigger at 55mm for a bit more life.

Good luck at Teesside - I won't be there as we have a long booked holiday. Jason will sort out the set up I'm sure

chequered_flag_racing wrote:JasonB

You may be getting the centre shock to sort out if I don't do it today. Pain in the arse to fill it. Will go over MarkB's shock post at the start of this thread and try again.

Anyone used a different centre shock?

I have used a Sylva Concepts shock body with a CRC Encore shaft, ball end and spring retainer. There is not an easy solution because the AE shock is quite short and is horizontally mounted at the front so maintaining alignment is critical.

I'll show you how it is done at the weekend

Jason

chequered_flag_racing wrote:

chequered_flag_racing wrote:
I have the steering blocks but the axles I have are alloy from a B4 and the king pin hole is to small

so don't try or buy ASC9623 as they don't fit. They were in the B4 box and I was hoping they would be OK

Correct one's on hold at AMC who hope to at TRCC by 14:00 on Saturday

Don't expect Wim to be there too early, it's a long way from Paington to Teesside in a van

Jason

chequered_flag_racing wrote:What tyre diameter front and rear to start at with new ones?

I agree with Mark 53-54mm is about optimum for performance, if you go above 56mm you will spend more time on your roof than on the wheels!

Jason